E045 Hollee George on Two-Spirit & Indigiqueer Identity
Let’s Be Well Together Podcast - Episode 45
Date: December 6, 2022
Participants: John Webster, Sammy Damaren, Cameron Earnshaw and Sheila Webster
Guest: Hollee “Red Sky Woman” George
Start times and Segment Segments:
[0:00:38] What’s On Your Mind: Sammy saw an interesting social media post about how much time we spend with family, friends, coworkers and others at different times in our lives. It’s worth thinking about how to focus that time.
[0:13:46] Expanding Minds Interview: [Socia Wellness] Hollee “Red Sky Woman” George provides a perspective on Two-Spirit and Indigiqueer identity. They walk in two worlds at once: the physical world and the spiritual world. Their traditional roles and responsibilities are many: often healers, mediators, social workers, justice people and medicine people in the community. Two-spirit people are naturally fluid people who have been held in high regard and respect and have been in community for time immemorial. When indigenous people came out of systems like Indian residential and day schools, they were deeply indoctrinated with Christianity and the gender binary and all the various phobias. That came back to their treaty territories and to our families and communities. Anyone who was a two-spirit person was no longer welcome. Change is happening, though it’s slow and painful. Two-spirit people are starting to live openly. People are starting to unlearn and re-learn. It’s difficult still in 2022 to be a two-spirit person in indigenous families and community, in indigenous places and spaces of all kinds.
[0:34:44] Adventures of the Starving Artist: One of Cameron’s favourite hats to wear is to write for other musicians. He tells us about it.
[0:39:24] Move That Body: Sheila found an article about different types of benefits from different types of exercise.
[0:44:19] Running Popup: John’s running thoughts focused on his dad, who passed away peacefully last week. A long run beforehand gave John a chance to reflect, then later it was time to say goodbye to his dad.
[0:51:20] Flipside of the Coin: On their trip to London, Sheila and John were spontaneous. They went with the flow, which turned into seeing and loving the production Dear Evan Hanson. It was a great experience.
Quotes and Take-Aways:
Red Sky Woman – In regards to the identity of two-spirit people, I would say that being two-spirit is much more about roles and responsibilities than anything.
Red Sky Woman – As two-spirit people, we are spiritually gifted people. My teachings come from a variety of two-spirit and indigiqueer knowledge keepers and elders that we are walking in two worlds at once: the physical world and the spiritual world at once and our traditional roles and responsibilities are many: often healers, mediators, social workers, justice people and medicine people in the community. On the basis of who we are – naturally fluid people – we are able to step into places and spaces, into rules in community and family, and be in positions of leadership and helping that have historically been held in high regard and respect.
Red Sky Woman – Being two-spirit is more about roles and responsibilities than it is about who are you sleeping with, or what’s your sexual orientation, or what’s between your legs.
Red Sky Woman – That natural fluid nature is how we are able to help bring balance into the community.
Red Sky Woman – The term two-spirit was brought forward by Dr. Myra Laramee in the 1990s. It is really a term to help other people to understand who we are. It’s always more about roles and responsibilities than anything.
Red Sky Woman – Two-spirit people have been in community for time immemorial. Indigenous people have been here for time immemorial.
Red Sky Woman – Through the process of colonization and through the process of assimilation, particularly Indian residential school and Indian day school, we were taught the gender binary. We were very much erased historically and boxed into the gender binary.
Red Sky Woman – Through the process of Indian residential school and Indian day school our people have learned the gender binary. They have learned transphobia. They have learned homophobia. That was not part of our ways of being, knowing and understanding historically. Those systems did a really good job at harming that dynamic. They essentially erased, took away and banned much of our ceremonies, and ways of being, knowing an understanding. The people went underground.
Red Sky Woman – It was indoctrinated: homophobia, transphobia. Indoctrinated. That fear of difference and fluidity. It is very prevalent in indigenous places and spaces; in indigenous healing and wellness spaces. Heteronormativity, transphobia, queerphobia, all the phobias are very prevalent in indigenous communities, in indigenous families. Very much so.
Red Sky Woman – In the past, we were happy with people just being their authentic selves. We didn’t understand ourselves or other people to be so rigid. We are very much a people who honour and respect difference and fluidity and authenticity. Through the process of Indian residential school and Indian day school those life ways were beaten out of us, were stolen from us, were banned from us. It’s truly and indoctrination of our own people.
Red Sky Woman – I would say that change is happening, though it’s slow and painful. Our people are starting to live openly. Our people are starting to unlearn and re-learn. It’s difficult still in 2022 to be a two-spirit person in indigenous families and community, in indigenous places and spaces of all kinds.
Red Sky Woman – If we can picture it in our mind’s eye, when our people came out of these systems like Indian residential schools and Indian day schools, they were deeply indoctrinated with Christianity and the gender binary and all the various phobias. When they came back into indigenous community, that came with them. That came back to our treaty territories and to our families and communities. Anyone who was a two-spirit person was no longer welcome. It’s not safe in white society for us, but it’s also not safe in indigenous families and communities either. We’re exceptionally displaced and dispossessed from our traditional teachings, customs, practices, families and community connections. This all comes from the systems of assimilation. The two-spirit people, anybody that was gay or trans, anybody different became a target for sexual violence and violence generally in those systems and following those systems.
Red Sky Woman – Nobody’s ever perfectly in balance. In terms of wellness, I’ve been taught that if you take care of your spirit first, all other things will come into alignment. Your physical, mental, emotional will come into line. We are spirit led people. Very much so.
Bulletin Board Quote brought to you by John: Flex the boredom muscle regularly.
Guest Information: Musko Giizhigo Ikwe (Red Sky Woman) or Hollee George is a Two-Spirit Anishnaabe Ikwe, lesbian, wife, mother, daughter, granddaughter, sister, auntie, niece and cousin. She is a member of Kettle and Stony Point First Nation and the Sturgeon Clan. Hollee’s academic and employment background is centred on Justice, especially criminal and social justice related to Indigenous and Queer people. In her roles as a Justice advocate, professional and Traditional Knowledge Keeper, she centres voices of Indian residential and day school survivors like herself and family. Currently living, working, and playing on the Haldimand Tract, Musko is actively involved in a variety of community organizations in the Region of Waterloo.
SPECTRUM (Waterloo Region’s Rainbow Community Space): https://www.ourspectrum.com/
Instagram: @SpectrumWaterlooRegion
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Thanks for joining us,
(-(-_(-_-)_-)-) Your wellness check-in team
John, Sammy, Cameron, Sheila and Julie